Khatia Dekanoidze: I Think Kiva Opened Champagne After My Dismissal

Khatia Dekanoidze: I think Kiva opened champagne after my dismissal

The presidential administration interfered in police personnel policy

Khatia Dekanoidze’s resignation is another step in the rapid “Georgianization” of Ukrainian power, the latest wave of which swept through this fall.

Mikheil Saakashvili’s team, or the so-called “reform special forces,” mostly of Georgian origin, received several important posts over the 2014–2015 years. The idea of injecting fresh blood into the Ukrainian governing apparatus belonged to former Head of the Presidential Administration Borys Lozhkin. In his logic, outsiders were to become the locomotive and example of change in the country while at the same time embellishing the ruling elite with their successes.

The resistance the Georgians faced led to different results. Although, it must be admitted, some of them simply failed at the task, like former Health Minister Alexander Kvitashvili. But most were forced to leave precisely because of the obstacles erected by the old system. A vivid example: former Deputy Prosecutor General David Sakvarelidze. He says he was dismissed after initiating an investigation into the “diamond prosecutors.”

Former head of the National Police Khatia Dekanoidze told Glavcom in an interview that she resigned on her own, but she does not hide that many Ukrainian officials applauded her dismissal. The only person who offered her to stay was President Petro Poroshenko, but Khatia does not believe the offer was sincere.

After speaking with Dekanoidze, doubts arise about the sincerity of another high-ranking official — Minister Arsen Avakov, who praised his subordinate throughout her tenure.

Former Deputy Prosecutor General David Sakvarelidze wrote that after the Georgian team was dismissed from Odesa region, the “elite” Odesa customs officers, starved for a year and a half, opened champagne... Who uncorked a bottle in connection with your resignation?

I think there were many. Those who did not want changes, who left our ranks after the attestation… Those who were reinstated in their positions through the courts, and we did not allow them to return. Those who believed the National Police was just a name.

I always fought for the National Police to be an independent executive body, and I was an advocate for an apolitical police, which is very important for our country. The tradition of dragging the police into political machinations, unfortunately, remains, and far from everyone in power understands that this must not be done.

The very first to celebrate my dismissal were people of the “system,” who believed the police worked for them and were convinced that the police could not have a humane face.

Meanwhile, our team spent this year fighting for the main goal — the police must work for the people.

Probably the day of your resignation was certainly celebrated by the person you failed to dismiss — Minister’s advisor Ilya Kiva…

I think Kiva opened champagne…

Maybe Arsen Avakov also opened a bottle of wine from his collection in your honor — and you celebrated together?

I haven’t spoken with him since my resignation.

And before the resignation?

Of course he knew about the plans for dismissal. I also had a conversation about the resignation with President Petro Poroshenko and with Prime Minister Volodymyr Hroisman. After all, the resignation of the head of the National Police, I think, is an important step. But after that I didn’t speak with any of them.

By the way, the president tried to persuade me to stay and continue working. Of course, this does not mean that many people loved Khatia and did not want to let her go... I think the reason for that (the president’s offer, Glavcom) was that at that time the authorities had not reached an agreement on the candidate for the new head of the National Police.

What role did Mikheil Saakashvili play in your dismissal? Did you talk to him about it?

No, he didn’t know. My resignation and his resignation are not related.

If you review Arsen Avakov’s public statements, his assessment of your work was always high. It’s all the more strange, then, that upon receiving your resignation letter he immediately signed it. Who lets go of a valuable manager so easily?!

That question is not for me. I announced my resignation at a press briefing on 14 November, after which the minister signed the letter. There could be no other options at that time, because the Cabinet of Ministers had already voted for my dismissal the day before, without much fuss.

Khatia Dekanoidze. Photo: Andriy Novitsky

You explained your resignation by saying you completed the key task — you launched the reboot of the Interior Ministry system. But the ease with which you were let go, and other facts, point to other reasons, an internal conflict…

I named the key reason — within a year we completed the main task: launching the National Police and creating a base for transforming the system.

When a year ago I was asked to head the National Police, I was stunned by the unexpected offer. The position was difficult and remains so. But it was especially hard at the start, when no one had an idea where to begin building a new body. No one comprehended the concept of transforming the militia into a police.

There were many questions, for example, how to create the National Police brand. As you know, the National Police today is separate from the ministry and works as an independent body. Back then we had to create a roadmap, a platform on which this structure would develop, taking into account that the National Police is not only patrol officers. It is also pretrial investigation, the criminal unit that needed reforming, the economic unit that had serious complaints and, by the way, still does.

Then, at the start, I set myself the task of creating a basis, a platform for development. Over the year we launched the patrol police in 32 cities.

The main achievement of my small team is that we prevented a rollback. And people believed that the police were being reformed. If you don’t fight, rollback will always happen. I really hope that there are many people within the Ukrainian police who will resist the system.

But regarding the overall situation I am pessimistic. Changes in the police alone will not yield the expected result. Transparency International recently published its Corruption Perceptions Index. Today we have the red color (high level of corruption, Glavcom), next after Tajikistan. That means every second Ukrainian is convinced the country is drowning in corruption. And that means there are no reforms.

What is the reason?

I have already been asked why the reform process in Georgia was easier? Because there was political will there, a single team that understood everything needed to be changed everywhere.

In Ukraine it’s different. The police are changing somewhat, but the prosecution and courts have remained in place.

Recently the prosecution has not been transforming?

…In no way. My assessment is zero.

How does the law enforcement system work? The police detain a criminal, hand the baton to the prosecution, and send the case to court. To fight corruption you need an honest judiciary. If, for example, the police and prosecution don’t operate at the same level, a strict, honest and effective judiciary can compensate. People and businesses would know that at a certain stage they can achieve justice. Since in Ukraine all three links — courts, prosecution and police — are sick, we received that red color that Transparency International awarded us.

We lost a lot of time after Maidan. Then there was a chance in a short time — in a few months — to lay the foundations for total transformation, primarily in matters related to overcoming corruption. So far that has not happened, and we continue to stall and lose chances.

So the opportunity is lost?

Chances exist and remain; we only need people who understand that without radical changes there will be no transformation.

This is important in the foreign policy context as well. Today Kyiv remains the only capital in its region that opposes Putin. Why? Because Georgia, which previously was the flagship of the fight against Russia, is losing that position. You know, several pro-Russian parties entered the Georgian parliament and the informal leader Bidzina Ivanishvili clearly carries out Vladimir Putin’s will and wishes; he is a Russian oligarch and is reorienting the country’s course toward Russia. The last elections in Moldova are also discouraging — pro-Russian politicians came to power. Therefore Kyiv remains the regional center that is forced, for its survival, to concentrate on foreign-policy struggle against Russia.

But if we cannot defeat our internal demons — corruption — we will not achieve success on the foreign-policy front.

About the demons. In explaining your resignation you hinted that “appointments in law enforcement cannot and should not be coordinated with politicians.” The first thought that comes to mind is that people were imposed on you for posts in the National Police. And who could do that but your immediate boss Avakov? Can you give examples of whom and how they were imposed on you?

In Ukraine appointments for political reasons are a general problem, and it is not only in the police.

By law (on the National Police, Glavcom), in drafting which I did not participate, the head of the police, unfortunately, is not an independent figure. I submit a personnel proposal on dismissal or appointment to the minister, and the minister in turn approves or disapproves that proposal.

I will give you one telling example that illustrates how political interests, closely intertwined with economic ones, set the tone in certain directions.

Everyone knows the story of Anton Shevtsov (former head of the Main Department of the National Police in Vinnytsia region, Glavcom).

Anton Shevtsov was appointed head of the Vinnytsia region police in January this year. Before the annexation of Crimea he worked in the Interior Ministry in Sevastopol; in March 2014 he was released into the reserves of the Armed Forces of Ukraine at his own request. Later he served in the ATO in the battalion “Luhansk-1.” And since July 2015 he headed the Chernihiv region police.

At the end of February 2016 this year social media users posted a joint photo of Shevtsov with Russian boxer-deputy Nikolai Valuev; the photo was taken against the background of a building with a Russian flag, and there were photos of Shevtsov’s son against the background of Russian occupation equipment in Crimea. In a Russia TV report from 10 May 2014 journalists showed Victory Day celebrations in an occupied city. During filming the correspondent approached Shevtsov, who had pinned a “St. George’s ribbon” on himself and told the media that his children carried the “flag of victory.”

Everyone understands that he was not my candidate. He was a candidate from the Presidential Administration. There was some strange political game in which Shevtsov was presented as a good candidate who could handle the tasks of a regional police chief. How the story ended is known to all (Shevtsov was scandalously dismissed this year, Glavcom): it was a reputational blow to the police.

And how were you asked about him?

They said he was okay, he could cope… By the way, the results of his work showed that he indeed could and was ready to work.

Still, who made that personnel proposal?

I said: from the Presidential Administration.

Former head of the National Police Khatia Dekanoidze, Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and President Petro Poroshenko. Photo: Presidential Administration

But who exactly lobbied for him? Maybe then-Head of the Presidential Administration Borys Lozhkin or the then-curator of law enforcement in the Presidential Administration Andriy Taranov?

Not them. It was an agreement at a higher level, at the insistence of the Presidential Administration, which spoke favorably of Shevtsov. It is a very telling story.

How many regional police leaders were imposed on you this way?

We hardly changed regional leaders because there was and still is a huge personnel shortage in the National Police structure.

And how many did you want to change but couldn’t?

There were a few people. But, as I said, given the personnel shortage, we were often forced to be guided primarily by the presence or absence of alternative candidates. And it is very difficult to find people who would be suitable for such positions and could cope with the tasks. Because in a few years we did not create a personnel reserve.

What should a police manager be like? He must have operational information, be a professional in pretrial investigation and, most importantly — work honestly.

In Kyiv we managed to change the situation (renew the personnel, Glavcom). Another matter is the regions, where corruption knitted together the police, prosecution, SBU and courts. In the regions they coexist like a monolith. This link is easily explained by their interdependence — for example, a police officer can illegally close a criminal case only by arrangement and with the knowledge of a prosecutor.

At the same time, the police currently have a large credit of trust. The latest survey (conducted in May by KMIS, Glavcom) showed that 46% trust the police. This is telling, since the survey was extensive — conducted in settlements with populations over 50 thousand people.

And what was trust in the militia a year ago?

2-3%...

Khatia Dekanoidze. Photo: Andriy Novitsky

This may indeed look like an achievement, but the figures are somewhat unclear: personnel renewal of the police was approximately 15%. So new blood — 15%, while trust increased by more than 40%. That’s strange.

The new blood is mostly the patrol police, which was launched back in 2015, starting in Kyiv. And we only began to attract new people to the criminal police — these are investigators and new district officers.

To do this we opened the police doors to graduates of law universities. In other words, you don’t have to graduate from ministry schools to get a position in the National Police. This process has already begun; transparent selections are underway. After the renewal of the patrol corps, my plan was to carry out mass recruitment to pretrial investigation bodies, operational units and to renew/fill district officer vacancies.

What to motivate them with? Previously an investigator received a salary of 4600 hryvnias a month, but from October this year, by Cabinet decision, that amount rose to 10 thousand. Operational officers will receive the same salary. And that is very good motivation.

I always said: there is a very simple truth in all reforms, although I no longer like the word “reform” because it is overly devalued in our country. A policeman with a meager salary cannot work effectively. He will always have the temptation to move into crime.

In any case, I am confident that gradually a new generation in the police will replace the old.

We are often criticized for not firing everyone; others accuse us of dismissing professional staff... But there were several reasons that hindered personnel renewal. One was that police commissions responsible for personnel selection did not operate for a long time. The fact is that their composition includes not only Interior Ministry employees but also representatives from regional administrations, local councils, and so on, and they were absent — due to local elections, political interference and so on. As a result, we only got the police commissions at the end of August.

Do you think that because of the personnel shortage Minister Avakov defended people from dismissal such as his former deputy Serhiy Chebotar and former deputy Vasyl Paskal, each of whom was involved in scandals (the first — corruption, the second — related to Maidan)? Or is Avakov’s position an attempt by the minister to show himself as “one of them” to the system?

I cannot comment on Chebotar — I do not know him. And I don’t know the story (regarding the corruption scandal, Glavcom) very well.

Regarding Paskal. Despite everything said, I consider him a very good professional in his field. He is in the search unit that does significant work to solve crimes. He himself decided to leave, although after his resignation we communicated many times — these were consultations on solving cases, searches, operational issues.

But what does Avakov’s defense of such people say?

I do not think Avakov did it to appear “one of them” to the system.

In turn, I am sure personnel should not be the starting point. I was often accused of not knowing operational work, of not being a procedural person. Even Lutsenko (the Prosecutor General, Glavcom) once said during a parliamentary committee meeting on law enforcement: bring back Paskal — and everything will be fine. But I am against tying the system to individuals. The problem is not that some person does not work. The problem is that the system does not work. And we need to strengthen it, make it effective, not build it around one person.

Vadym Troyan, who is now acting head of the National Police, will he be able to strengthen the system? You previously called him, your first deputy, a dependent person.

Yes, I told journalists I do not see him as an independent person. That is my personal opinion. I worked with him for several months.

In pointing out this flaw of his, are you basing it on concrete facts? Is he dependent on Avakov?

Yes, he is very dependent on the minister. In contrast, the head of the police must be strong and independent. He should not be concerned with creating a comfort zone for any particular politician or minister/president/prime minister. He must create a comfortable zone for police officers and citizens whom the police protect.

It is good that the minister announced a competition for the head of the National Police, although the law on the National Police does not provide for this.

Photo: Stanislav Hruzdev

Did Troyan coordinate anything directly with Avakov?

Our main disagreements concerned subordination.

What exactly did Troyan report to Avakov bypassing you?

I do not know for sure.

You have repeatedly said you do not want to air dirty laundry. On one hand that is ‘corporately’ correct. On the other, the more people who don’t want to air the dirty laundry, the more trash accumulates there.

I did not bring disagreements and conflict with Troyan into the public because that would have meant my weakness as a leader.

Do you know who will participate in the competition for the head of the National Police?

No. It is important whether the competition will be open or closed. But the very fact that the minister chose a competition is a powerful step. Our international partners also insisted on this. The head of the National Police is its face. Moreover, the face of the police for the next five years. Because the next head will sign a contract for that term. He or she will be responsible for parliamentary and presidential elections and must continue transforming the militia into a police. This person will be important for Ukrainian realities.

Still, did you have a conflict with Minister Avakov? What was your relationship — friendly, worklike?

Worklike. There was no personal conflict. There were some disagreements, which always happen. It was difficult to work with the bureaucratic machine of the ministry. We do not work to create a comfort zone for the minister or the head of the police, but to do the job. I also had some discussions with the president. That is normal. That is how the head of the police should work: argue the work points, including to people in higher positions.

But I never engaged in politics while working at the National Police. Despite all the difficulties, we only defended the interests of citizens and police officers.

Would you try another position in Ukraine?

In these realities I would not take another official position.

So you believe the system cannot be broken from the inside?

I always compared the system to a big hippopotamus that you poke with a big stick…

But it neither dies nor really lives?

It is a big system that has existed for several decades. How can you immediately, in a year, change a system that practices revenge? This is not only the police problem. We see the same in healthcare, education and other systems. Revenge shows its strength everywhere. We drive someone out the door, and they return through the windows; we drive them out the windows, and they return through the ventilation shafts.

Therefore in these realities I will not take a post. But I remain in Ukraine.

Maybe we will see you in Saakashvili’s new political force?

I cannot speak on such topics yet. I have a lot accumulated. I now need to pay attention to my son, my health. Soon I’m going to Vienna to speak at a conference about reforms in Ukraine. I want to finally see doctors because I have health problems and they cannot make a diagnosis. Honestly, I don’t know what I will do next. For the first time in my life I am left without a job and concrete plans.

There is such a conspiracy theory…

Oh... I’ve been in the police for 12 years, but I hate conspiracy theories.

However, according to one conspiracy theory, a series of events is aimed at weakening Arsen Avakov’s position, who has serious political ambitions, possibly even greater than Arseniy Yatsenyuk’s. Recently Avakov suffered several serious image blows: appointing Anastasia Deyeva as deputy and the scandal that followed, your resignation, investigations into hidden offshore accounts. The theory says all this is part of a chain to remove an influential minister…

Regarding my resignation. I, as required by law, informed the minister, the president and the prime minister about it. Everyone knew. I fulfilled my function and paved the way for transformations. You see, an independent civic person came to the so-called militia for the first time…

Well, we already had a full-fledged civic interior minister — Yuriy Lutsenko, who now holds the post of Prosecutor General.

Why do I speak of myself that way? I worked in the police in Georgia, and essentially I am a person not tied to the system. I fulfilled my function and left. Everyone (including the president) knew that at some point I would do this.

But it is strange that the dismissals of Marushevska, you, Lortkipanidze, Saakashvili — the so-called Georgian team — coincided.

I knew that Giorgi (Lortkipanidze) wanted to leave. We talked about it. I think everyone in the police knew… And Misha also knew Giorgi was leaving.

But not the entire Georgian team left. Gizo Uglava (first deputy director of the National Anti-Corruption Bureau) and Gia Getsadze (deputy justice minister) remain. Eka Zguladze (former deputy interior minister) left for personal reasons. David Sakvarelidze was forced out of the prosecution by Shokin. But David remains in Ukraine. Misha also remains in Ukraine.

…At least until the next elections.

Well… (laughs).

I will also live in Ukraine. I am a citizen of Ukraine. There were rumors that Khatia had dual citizenship. No. I have only a Ukrainian passport. Of course I will visit Georgia, visit my parents whom I have not seen for a long time and miss very much.

During our previous meeting in March you, speaking about reforms and events, said “in Ukraine.” Today you constantly say “our,” “our country.” Have you in this short time already come to feel Ukraine as your country?

This is my country. I worry a lot about it. There are many resources here that could be directed in the right way. But Georgia is also my country, of course. I worry about it too.

About e-declaration. BMW X5, Toyota Highlander, Nissan X-Trail, Audi Q5... These are all cars of police leaders’ families. Have you paid attention to such assets of subordinates? Do they not surprise you?

Of course I reviewed electronic declarations, especially of police employees. But I did not see anyone with a BMW X5 or Toyota Highlander when I visited the regions. I didn’t see what the wife, son or daughter of a particular employee was driving. Of course no one showed me that. But if there is any discrepancy, those facts can be handled by NABU.

By the way, prosecutors’ declarations look more interesting than the police. Even “hotter” are the fiscal service declarations. The declarations of State Fiscal Service head Roman Nasirov and some other officials were a revelation to me…

By the way, after the publication of officials’ declarations everyone was outraged, but the story had no continuation... People keep writing about the deputy minister’s age (referring to newly-appointed deputy Interior Ministry head Anastasia Deyeva, Glavcom), but no one cares anymore where so many zeros in Nasirov’s and other high officials’ declarations came from.

Khatia Dekanoidze resigned as head of the National Police of Ukraine. Photo: Stanislav Hruzdev

The case of police officer Serhiy Oliynyk, who shot a passenger during a vehicle pursuit. What is the fate of the participants in this incident?

The prosecution completed the investigation. That was, for me, a turning point. I felt very strongly how the new system fights the old. Should that car have been stopped? Yes. Who is to blame for what happened? The drunk driver or the policeman who stopped the car that raced across Kyiv at 180 kilometers per hour? What if it had been daytime and children were going to school, people to work, and so on? When the court released the drunk driver, who was drunk at the time, my hands literally shook. How is that possible?

But the prosecution did not change its views, did not change the article (Oliynyk is accused of attempted murder of two or more people (art. 15 of the Criminal Code) and exceeding official powers, Glavcom). Let’s see what the court says.

A similar story happened in Ivano-Frankivsk.

In October the prosecution charged the head of the Ivano-Frankivsk patrol police, Dmytro Myhalets, under art. 365 of the Criminal Code — exceeding power and official authority. The charge followed a complaint from ATO veteran Ivan Chaikovskyi, who said he was beaten by Myhalets in his office when he came to contest a fine for improper parking. Myhalets denies this and says Chaikovskyi raised his voice at him and threw his ATO veteran ID at his face.

Do such things show you the futility of the fight?

This does not show me the futility of the fight, but I am an experienced person. The main thing is that young people who came to us do not feel this. Don’t think: if the prosecution pressures like this, why did we come? And we have 12 thousand of such people in the patrol police.

This episode with Myhalets was telling. In Kharkiv there was also an accident in which two people died in a crash involving a patrol police car. The patrol officer who was driving is under detention. Expertise is still not finished. Court processes are occasionally postponed. So there are things that, while not aimed at me, give the patrol officers, the new generation, the understanding: try to do something, but if you do something wrong, we will always, excuse me, “finish you off.”

But no one intended or intends to cover for policemen either. Including those patrol officers detained by the internal security service. Because you have to get rid of scoundrels. But it is also important to protect the fragile changes that have already been made.

I am very worried about Oliynyk… No one could not but be outraged when the court released the BMW driver Khrapachevskyi, while that policeman remained in pretrial detention.

But our current patrol officers, believe me, in three years will become real, good cops who can hold leadership positions. They need some time to stand on their feet.

Where is your son now?

Also in Ukraine. He was going to go to the U.S. But a family tragedy occurred in August — he lost his father. And without his father he did not want to live in the U.S. So I transferred him to Ukraine. He didn’t take the university entrance exams and doesn’t speak Ukrainian, so he studies at a branch of an American university here. He needed support, and I didn’t want to be separated from him after this tragedy. Because it was a tragedy not only for him but for me too. Although my husband and I divorced long ago, he was a very good person, we remained friends and raised our son together. It is a catastrophe when I have no one to call, for example, when my son behaves badly. I have no one else to turn to for help.

Kateryna Peshko, Fedir Oryshchuk, Glavcom