Andriy Bohdan: I'm talking about what you don't yet know

Andriy Bohdan: I'm talking about what you don't yet know

The Head of the President's Office doesn't mince words; he uses sharp—and at times obscene—phrasing.

Andriy Bohdan's persona is popular because of his significant influence on Volodymyr Zelensky. At the same time, the Head of the President's Office insists this is an exaggeration—he only advises, and the president makes all the decisions himself.

Mr. Bohdan's office is located on the second floor of a huge gray building on Bankova Street. It's decorated in green tones, but that's not a nod to the new president's surname: in fact the furniture hasn't been changed since Leonid Kuchma's time—he worked here for ten years of his presidency.

In the corner of the office there's a neat green sofa where, according to accounts, Mykola Melnychenko hid his recorder.

The current occupant of the office doesn't seem afraid of being monitored. More than that—on the entrance door and on the wall behind Bohdan's desk are stickers reading "Continuous video surveillance by NABU."

Joke or not, in his BBC interview Mr. Bohdan doesn't mince words; he uses sharp—and at times obscene—phrasing. Maybe it's just a trait of his character: not for nothing did Volodymyr Zelensky, in an interview marking his first hundred days, answer a question about his Head of Office's personal qualities by saying: "Bohdan needs to calm down."

One way or another, he is called the most influential person in the architecture of power that President Zelensky is building now—with significant participation from Bohdan himself, of course. And so far they are succeeding.

On Friday, when this interview was recorded, Andriy Bohdan was in a great mood: a few hours earlier the Verkhovna Rada had satisfied the president's submission and dismissed the entire composition of the Central Election Commission. During the conversation Bohdan occasionally glanced at the parliamentary channel's broadcast, but more attention in his office is drawn to a painting showing the Verkhovna Rada's podium, where penguins sit in place of deputies.

Bohdan gave exhaustive answers in the BBC interview about the President's Office's relations with the new Rada and the crazy deputies within it, about the fate of Vitali Klitschko and the meeting with Ihor Kolomoisky, and about his attitude toward journalists.

There will be no relocation

BBC: Have you completed the reform of the President's Office?

Andriy Bohdan: It's not finished yet. Regarding the renaming to "Office"—that's the right European tradition, which we support, because "administration" is a Soviet-era name that implies a command center. In developed European countries there is an Office of the President.

Another reason for this reorganization was that typically, when a new boss comes into a state position, he reorganizes to clean up the personnel. Of course, over ten years or even over 27 years the staff here hasn't changed much.

The civil service has this feature—clannishness. In Ukrainian there's a concept "kumivstvo" (nepotism); usually some relatives were placed here.

BBC: Has the president's team abandoned the idea of moving?

Andriy Bohdan: For now, they've abandoned it.

BBC: Do you admit that from the beginning you voiced a populist slogan about moving without sufficiently studying the issue?

Andriy Bohdan: Why call it populist? Why did I then say the popular phrase that we don't communicate with journalists directly? Because journalists express their own opinions or society's opinions transformed through their view of life and the world; they transmit this to society somewhat distorted.

We understood that our opponents would negatively portray any relocation as wasting budget funds. We had a very good scheme, and we're going to implement it now—how to find those funds without spending the state budget. We want to return to the state what was corruptly taken out from under state control.

And with those funds we planned the move. For now we couldn't do it because there are many questions in the area of security and communications. From that point of view any relocation—to Ukrainian House or other places we considered—is connected with a great deal of work.

Moving an Office like this cannot be to a temporary house; such a building must be constructed from the beginning for this function.

BBC: Recently Zelensky said he doesn't ride a bicycle for security reasons and that his life is under threat. Were there assassination attempts planned against the president?

Andriy Bohdan: I can't tell you that. Security functions report directly to the president and the heads of the relevant agencies report to him directly. I don't have information about planned assassination attempts.

But there exist two wings of the Ukrainian polity that are ideologically opposite but share goals—they try to destabilize the situation in the country and very much dream of worsening the standing of the current authorities.

Accordingly, their methods haven't changed in the last year; they do what they're used to doing. Therefore, the president needs protection. We all take big risks by demonstrating openness. For example, we opened the passage on Bankova Street.

Of course that's a good gesture for society, but from morning till night I have demonstrations here—competitions to see who can shout louder.

Sometimes our whole team just goes out to have lunch in nearby restaurants, and that's, on one hand, a demonstration of openness and closeness to the people; on the other hand, it's a security risk. More and more people understand that the situation in Ukraine is changing, the rules of the game are changing, and not everyone is ready to accept such rules.

BBC: One of the "Servant of the People" deputies wrote an SMS about a "coup" that could happen by the end of the year...

Andriy Bohdan: Liza Bohutska.

BBC: Do you know anything about this "coup"?

Andriy Bohdan: I don't want to use the word "coup," but destabilization of the situation—yes.

"All decisions are made by the president"

BBC: People call you the curator of all issues. Are there topics or directions you don't oversee?

Andriy Bohdan: That's absolutely untrue. The functionality of any managerial team is clearly defined and divided among its members. Such claims can be made by someone who doesn't understand what functionality even of a small enterprise is.

My task is to ensure that all branches of power work synchronously to achieve a certain goal. I cannot dictate personnel decisions or tactical or strategic decisions to someone. The goals are set by the president for state bodies. I control that they move synchronously toward achieving that goal. But personnel decisions, tactical achievement of goals, the texts of instructions, decrees and laws are developed by the respective bodies. I have no influence on that.

Photo: UNIAN

BBC: I think if we asked some artist to draw you in the aspect in which you are most remembered by the public, he'd draw you whispering something in the president's ear.

Andriy Bohdan: Many laugh about that; some even joke "95 Kvartal."

BBC: What do you most often whisper to him?

Andriy Bohdan: Advice, ideas that arise. If you don't say them now but say them later, the moment will be lost.

There's that popular photo from Dnipro when I'm whispering something in the president's ear. Then the idea arose: let's announce a bet—either you do it by this date or resign. If I'd said it an hour later in the Office, it wouldn't have been as relevant. That was the moment.

In July, during the president's visit to Dnipro, Volodymyr Zelensky and Dnipro Mayor Borys Filatov made a bet that the mayor would resign if the Central Bridge wasn't repaired by 14 September.

7 September Filatov demonstrated the new bridge in question, and already 14 September the president came to see it. After inspecting the object, Zelensky said that "the bridge exists, but there are questions about its quality."

Answering journalists' questions about the bet, the president said it continues until a special commission checks the bridge's quality and issues its assessments.

BBC: Does the president often listen to you?

Andriy Bohdan: You underestimate the president. All decisions are made by the president. We have an understanding, and it has been kept for more than a year: we all recognize Volodymyr Zelensky's right to make decisions. At the same time he recognizes our right to express our opinion.

BBC: Weren't you offended that in the film about the first 100 days of the presidency he said Bohdan needs to calm down?

Andriy Bohdan: He calms me down constantly; this has followed me since kindergarten when my parents constantly calmed me down.

On the meeting with Kolomoisky

BBC: A few days ago there was a meeting with Kolomoisky at the Presidential Office. Whose idea was it and what decisions were reached?

Andriy Bohdan: I don't understand why society is so interested in this.

BBC: Because in previous meetings there wasn't such a photo.

Andriy Bohdan: There was a photo; we officially announced with whom we met. We announced when we officially met with Akhmetov, with Pinchuk, and there were photos.

BBC: Whose idea was it?

Andriy Bohdan: Journalists, probably, want to hear that it was Kolomoisky's idea. No. We had a problem related to Ukraine's energy independence. One point was the pickets at Ukrenergo by employees of Kolomoisky's ferroalloy plants.

To understand the depth of this process, the depth of production costs and the depth of electricity prices for industrial producers, we called such a meeting. I understand that calling the director of some enterprise makes no sense. You have to call the person who makes decisions.

There was a shared thought: why should we hide? Why should we go at night to some suburban dachas, sit in some dark rooms of a dark restaurant. We are honest with society, we are not violating anything.

Photo: PRESIDENT'S OFFICE

BBC: In the end, did you reach an agreement with Kolomoisky?

Andriy Bohdan: We're on the path of finding a compromise.

BBC: Will there be redistribution of property?

Andriy Bohdan: Redistribution of property is impossible.

BBC: Some believe Kolomoisky has certain designs on Kryvorizhstal, and the SBU has recently become more active there...

Andriy Bohdan: I don't know Kolomoisky's interests; I know the state's interests.

BBC News Ukraine: Does the president also meet with other oligarchs?

Andriy Bohdan: He meets with everyone. Some like it, some don't, but we have to talk to everyone. You have to hear everyone. See, we fulfill not only our promises but also the promises of our predecessors. They didn't fulfill them, and we have to do it.

BBC: And at that meeting did you discuss rebuilding Donbas? Zelensky previously said Kolomoisky would help rebuild Donbas, to which Kolomoisky replied, "I can paint a kiosk."

Andriy Bohdan: Conversations on this topic took place. Ihor Valeriyovych is constrained by an English court decision that he cannot spend more than a certain amount per week. But he promised that when the opportunity appears he will personally take part. Until then he will recommend his friends and acquaintances to assist charity in various directions as much as possible.

"I don't like diplomats much"

BBC: Could you briefly explain why Zelensky's team managed to carry out the prisoner exchange and Poroshenko's team did not?

Andriy Bohdan: There was political will.

BBC: And they didn't have it?

Andriy Bohdan: They were sitting on a hundred thousand different snares; they couldn't make any decision because their motivation was different.

How Ukrainian power functioned over 27 years was a system of certain balances between various financial-political groups, clans, politicians, bandits, businessmen. Not making fast decisions and actions, balancing. You become set on a hundred thousand different snares that prevent you from making any decision. Why didn't they do it? I don't even know the answer.

As far as I understand, they couldn't make any principled decisions, or they lacked contact, or they didn't trust them, or they weren't engaged, or they weren't interested.

7 September Ukraine and Russia carried out a prisoner exchange on the formula "35 for 35."

I have a personal deep conviction, which is not related to what the state thinks now: it seems to me that Petro Oleksiyovych benefited from keeping our prisoners there to use this argument to influence the views of leading politicians of the world.

BBC: Won't giving up Tsemakh to Russia spoil Ukraine's relations with the West? The Netherlands directly asked not to hand him over.

Andriy Bohdan: The Netherlands is one of the main beneficiaries of constructing the Nord Stream - 2; the Netherlands held a referendum about signing the Association Agreement with us, the Netherlands is one of the main lobbyists of the idea of Russia's return to PACE.

When we meet with European politicians, they say they defend the interests of their population, their country, their future. Excuse me—but whom should we protect? The interests of the Netherlands? They have business with Russia. They have very close relations, some shared political views; they have something to trade for Tsemakh.

BBC: Is there any clarity about the next meeting of the leaders of the Normandy format?

Andriy Bohdan: Over all my bureaucratic work I really don't like diplomats. I have many colleagues and friends who work there. But I'm a person who needs to say what he thinks and hear back what the other person thinks. They can talk five hours about nothing. You've lost five hours and don't understand what they talked about. So I try not to engage in international relations. Because all I could do there is like a bull in a china shop.

BBC: Our colleagues from the BBC Russian Service, citing their diplomatic sources, say the Russians generally aren't inclined toward a meeting because there's nothing to talk about. They say it is more useful to Zelensky for publicity. Do you have things to negotiate?

Andriy Bohdan: I don't want to offend diplomats—they are decent people—but it seems to me the biggest diplomat deciding in Russia is the president. Probably the same already in Ukraine. It's becoming clear that there is a center of making international decisions, thank God.

BBC: Do the two presidents have a good rapport?

Andriy Bohdan: From what I know—there were three telephone conversations; the substance and intonation of those talks give me hope for the end of the military conflict.

BBC: When?

Andriy Bohdan: When the time comes.

BBC: That's what everyone says.

Andriy Bohdan: But not everyone acts that way.

BBC: Does the President's Office have contacts with Putin's administration?

Andriy Bohdan: I called my counterpart, phoned him about five times, but he was on vacation in August. In September his secretaries answered that he doesn't yet have the authority to speak with me.

BBC: Did you call others? Surkov, for example?

Andriy Bohdan: We didn't call. By diplomatic rules I must contact only my counterpart in that country.

"The CEC made political decisions"

BBC: Today the Rada (the conversation took place 13 September - ed.) dissolved the CEC, which, according to international observers, organized democratic presidential and parliamentary elections that, by the way, your team won. Why dissolve it?

Andriy Bohdan: The path to the beautiful is endless. Each subsequent CEC should be better and better, and to make the CEC excellent we should more often change its personnel composition.

BBC: But many call this a usurpation of power...

Photo: MYKHAILO MARKIV

Andriy Bohdan: Many called him a "puppet-president," "spineless," "a clown," and so on. A portion of society is dissatisfied with the president and says things.

What matters is different: everything we do we do based on sociological research. We do nothing until we are confident society demands it.

I understand that in the future we will probably face unpopular steps, but for now we are building both our election campaign and policy this way.

So recent sociological research gave the president a support level of 72-73%.

BBC: The Rating group published 71%.

Andriy Bohdan: I'm talking about something else—about what you don't yet know.

BBC: So how many voted is how many they give?

Andriy Bohdan: That's in the first round. For the first time in Ukraine's history two ratings crossed—the level of trust and distrust in the authorities. There was always a distrust level of 75% and a trust level of 10%. Even during the Maidan those indicators never crossed.

Now they not only crossed but went further. Trust in the authorities is now 55%, and distrust is 15%. There's your answer.

The CEC was formed on dishonest parity terms; they were politically biased. It's probably the best composition of the CEC that existed, yet they made political decisions, and therefore they received such an assessment.

BBC: Do you mean the majoritarian districts?

Andriy Bohdan: Yes, disputed majoritarian districts. They excluded candidate Kunytsky from the Kharkiv district where Hranovskyi ran. That was a purely political decision.

BBC: What about his Israeli passport?

Andriy Bohdan: By court decision that person was returned to the list, and he won the election. If you remove him from the majoritarian list, Hranovskyi would have won. And I know exactly who and how lobbied that decision.

I believe that with such a history the CEC has no right to continue to shape policy in Ukraine and control elections.

BBC: When the committee considered dismissing the entire CEC, your opponent Savrasov said...

Andriy Bohdan: To avoid wasting time, I'll tell you: Mr. Savrasov is a deputy from the BPP faction, which controls 70% of the places on this CEC composition.

Don't give me philosophy about what an endlessly good python is. I speak about the fact—this is control by those who lost the people's trust of one of the central control panels of the state. And one political party that lost society's trust cannot control elections across Ukraine.

Member of the "European Solidarity" faction Maksym Savrasov, commenting on the idea of dissolving the CEC, said: "I recently saw a National Geographic story. There a boa constrictor ate a large antelope. But it couldn't crawl far because it couldn't digest the antelope."

BBC: What about one that has society's trust—can it?

Andriy Bohdan: One political party—no. Everything must be according to current legislation.

About the "Servant of the People" faction

BBC: The "Servant of the People" faction is already complaining that the President's Office wants to make them "tame animals." How do you react and are you afraid this resentment will grow and lead to a serious conflict in the president-parliament relationship?

Andriy Bohdan: I don't think it will grow. You don't realize how hard it is to make such decisions. That is 254 people, most of whom did not come from your circle. The absolute majority. You need to understand the sources of forming these lists, where these people came from.

Some people really came from Facebook, like Liza Bohutska; we found some people online: whoever is popular in that district—we called them and asked, "Are you running for us? Tomorrow you need to submit documents." There are such people. Some were given by regional headquarters, there are journalists our press center recommended, there are people from BRDO whom Oleksiy Honcharuk brought, whom we had never seen in our lives.

Photo: MYKHAILO MARKIV

This is the only list formed without a penny of money. No party in Ukraine ever formed such a list. Of course there are different people—people who once sold fruit at the market, wedding photographers. Different people. Part of our work is to form a team from them.

BBC: How do you react to being called "tame animals"?

Andriy Bohdan: There are crazy people, mentally ill. A cross-section of society. Science hasn't established what a mentally healthy person is; each of us has phobias—yours and mine. There's no standard of mental health. If someone feels like a little animal—what can we do?

It's a question of goals and ideology. They argue, don't understand, demand things. But while they go together toward one goal—we are all one team. If someone leaves the team and stops being part of our team—we will probably consider him an enemy.

BBC: And?

Andriy Bohdan: We are very democratic toward our enemies.

BBC: The president said at YES: "Happiness is seeing a thief on the bunks, not on the Maldives." What was that about?

Andriy Bohdan: You should take his interview to understand what he meant.

BBC: Was that a message to Petro Poroshenko?

Andriy Bohdan: First—I wasn't there; second—I didn't hear it; third—I don't know what sense he puts into that phrase. You're asking me the interview.

BBC: Who do the Maldives associate with for you?

Andriy Bohdan: Me? I was there once, and I won't say with whom (laughs).

Photo: MYKHAILO MARKIV

Petro Oleksiyovych Poroshenko in my personal ranking is deeply negative. Do you know why? Not because from his personal submission very undemocratic events happened to me. But because he screwed up five years of our state's life.

He tells how everything is hard, how impossible, how one thing interferes with another. Having full power, absolute concentration of power in 2014 year, and then screwing it up in half a year—I don't understand.

You see we're here, we're effective, we're getting things done. Why couldn't he and his professionals do elementary things?

BBC: Sorry, but what you're saying now reminds a lot of what Yanukovych did...

Andriy Bohdan: When journalists start talking about Yanukovych it reminds me of journalists who worked under Yanukovych. And under Poroshenko, and under Yushchenko. Part of the corruption in this state is corruption of the fourth estate. Journalists are the fourth estate, and it is deeply corrupted like the whole state.

And cleansing the first three branches of power without cleansing the fourth is impossible. I know how all this works.

BBC: What do you mean by cleansing?

Andriy Bohdan: You must have some self-cleansing too. Society wants cleansing not only of the judiciary and law enforcement but of journalism as well. Of course you won't like that; it will be "hype" number two, but you must also realize that. I'm not speaking personally about you.

BBC: People are talking a lot about the "crazy printer" in the Rada. Why was it launched?

Andriy Bohdan: Before that they wrote—why do nothing, why haven't you adopted important laws. Everyone who writes that are snobs who can't do anything themselves, and society reacts exactly the opposite. Society's sociology requires decisive actions. They don't understand what a procedural regulation is, what amendments, second reading mean—they don't get it. You're either working or not working.

And we are working; yet something displeases. But what displeases?

BBC: For example, button-pushing MPs are disliked.

Andriy Bohdan: You know, if you listen to people, there is a priori no legislation in Ukraine, because in 27 years there isn't a single law adopted without button-pushing. The first ones began to appear.

BBC: What to do about it?

Andriy Bohdan: The path to the beautiful is endless. It's either showmanship or genuine work.

The painting depicting penguins in the Verkhovna Rada that hangs in Andriy Bohdan's office. Photo: MYKHAILO MARKIV

BBC: How then do you differ from your predecessors?

Andriy Bohdan: We all think button-pushing is evil. But we also think that "hype" about two people—one went to the restroom and asked a friend to press the button—is overblown.

BBC: "From the blue stream the river begins"...

Andriy Bohdan: And what? Were you trying to impress me with the depth of your intellect?

BBC: No.

Andriy Bohdan: The phenomenon exists. Compared to other parliaments that were in this country, this is, in my view, so far the best result.

BBC: About punishment for button-pushing...

Andriy Bohdan: Button-pushing is a negative phenomenon for society, but you must still adopt other ways of parliamentary work, because abroad it isn't like that.

Abroad discussions are among those interested, not by mandatory presence. For me, the space law is just purple—why should I sit there? Even in the U.S. Senate those interested come to the discussion, and the chamber is empty. One senator speaks, two others sit...

But voting is different. We mixed it into one nonworking form. The problem isn't people or society or deputies. The problem is an incorrect bureaucratic mechanism. You just need to fix the bureaucratic mechanism, that's all.

BBC: Will this be a bill?

Andriy Bohdan: These will be changes and additions to the rules of procedure law. But this is a matter for the Verkhovna Rada; I can't influence it. I can advise, but whether they do it or not—I don't know.

I think such tools will absolutely destroy button-pushing and at the same time make the parliament's work effective. Past parliaments button-pushed not because they wanted to show society their contempt. They button-pushed because they needed to pass certain laws and needed 226 votes they didn't have. Someone got sick, someone lost interest, someone came for a mandate and went to live in London.

This was a negative phenomenon that objectively existed because it was needed. How to avoid it in this parliament—I think you just need to change the rules of procedure: the structure of bill discussions should be for specialists and those interested, not for everyone.

BBC: When parliament removed deputies' immunity, your opponents charged you that the president should have submitted the same bill for himself—at least in the first reading.

Andriy Bohdan: But we adopted the impeachment law.

BBC: And just removing immunity isn't being considered? Impeachment law needs 338 votes, which will never be—let's be realistic.

Andriy Bohdan: Why? Today we dismissed the CEC with 343 votes.

BBC: There are no plans to remove the president's immunity?

Andriy Bohdan: I'm not a specialist on presidential immunity; for me immunity and impeachment are roughly the same concept. In no country in the world is there criminal prosecution of a sitting president other than through the impeachment procedure. There is no other procedure; I simply don't understand what you're talking about.

On lifting the moratorium on land sales

BBC: The IMF mission is currently working in Ukraine. Was there already a meeting at the President's Office?

Andriy Bohdan: No, they seem to have only started working today. Of course there will be a meeting with the president; I don't know when yet, but it's more work with the Cabinet of Ministers.

BBC: Is the issue of lifting the land turnover moratorium up to you or not?

Andriy Bohdan: I can comment.

BBC: Is the package of bills on this ready? Is it realistic to vote to lift the moratorium by 1 December, as the president said?

Andriy Bohdan: To vote for a law—yes. I just don't know at what stage the drafting of this bill is. I think it's at some final stage.

But there's a very strong sociological marker: people are generally against free land circulation. There are two aspects. First, mainly those who don't own land are against it. Second, it's a relic of the Soviet system. Under the Soviet system there wasn't private ownership of apartments. Well, it was kind of yours, but you couldn't sell it; they invented terrible exchanges with resettlements and registrations of relatives.

With land now it's the same. We declared that land is privately owned, but the owner cannot sell it. That's absolute nonsense, because through legal mechanisms these lands are sold. Millions of hectares are sold every year. Long-term leases for 49 years are the simplest mechanism and are equated to ownership under banking systems, and we have a hundred other mechanisms to re-register land ownership. Moreover: upon inheritance it becomes property.

If it's my property, why can't I sell it? Let's also introduce restrictions on the right to own apartments: it's yours, but you can't sell it. Why?

Those definitely not interested in lifting the moratorium are owners of large agro-holdings. They for many years built an information policy that it is evil—some Americans or Chinese will come and buy all the land. But you can't take the land out of the country, no matter who owns it. If an asset is in Ukraine—a factory, a plant, land—taxes will be paid here, and the land will always remain in Ukraine.

The state regulates the use of that land. The state is a partner in any business; it always gets its share through taxes. And the best partner in any business is the state; it regulates the business. If citizens of other countries own land—nothing terrible will happen, no difference. On the contrary, an owner is interested in efficient land use.

BBC: You speak within the liberal ideology your political force and the president uphold, but the point is different: for 27 years people were told that land circulation is very bad. Aren't you afraid people could be brought out to the streets under these slogans? Some sincerely believe in the harm of land circulation; others will get 200 hryvnias for this...

Andriy Bohdan: That's already two wings of the same bird...

28 years in this state they told people that a comedic actor couldn't be president; there must be a professional. So our task is to break stereotypes.

Photo: MYKHAILO MARKIV

BBC: Are you afraid of mass protests?

Andriy Bohdan: I don't think mass protests are possible now. We'll have a large part of our informational policy... Of course what you do must be explained to society in such cases, and we will explain it.

On the other hand, again based on sociology, mass protests against the current authorities are impossible. And conversely—the instigators of such mass events may run into an active stance from active citizens and receive a completely opposite reaction to what they expect.

Again, I don't expect law enforcement to leave such coups without proper attention and reaction.

On Klitschko and local elections

BBC: Where did the decree dismissing Vitali Klitschko as head of the Kyiv City State Administration get lost?

Andriy Bohdan: Why would it get lost?

BBC: You so actively demanded his resignation, you even sent a letter to the Cabinet...

Andriy Bohdan: We like how he behaves... (laughs). I don't know how to rephrase this obscene phrase... "Better a terrible end than endless terror" (laughs).

BBC: So will you dismiss him or not?

Andriy Bohdan: We are obliged to do it, according to the Constitution.

BBC: Why such a big pause then? The government's decision is already a week old.

Andriy Bohdan: We're watching him (laughs).

BBC: It seems you are beginning to like him.

Andriy Bohdan: We always like him. He's a great athlete, probably a good person. Somewhere he went astray.

BBC: Will there be early elections in Kyiv? Media, citing sources, write about 8 December.

Andriy Bohdan: I don't know what they write.

The real answer to your previous questions: we may look like bulls in a china shop, but we work through every issue, we build it, we understand the next step and the third and fourth.

Right now we're building an algorithm of actions.

BBC: Do you have a ready candidate to replace Klitschko?

Andriy Bohdan: No ready one. There are many not-ready ones (laughs).

BBC: They say Tkachenko refused...

Andriy Bohdan: I haven't heard that.

The smallest problem in all this are the candidates (laughs). There are many candidates. Maybe I'll even run.

BBC: Are you joking now?

Andriy Bohdan: I never seriously thought about it, but recent events showed the audience sees Bohdan as Klitschko's opponent. I think it would be stepping down a few levels for me. On the other hand, I have almost fulfilled my function—as the first stage of a rocket that places it into orbit—I have almost launched it. And I need to take up something serious.

BBC: For example?

Andriy Bohdan: For example, mayoral elections (laughs).

No, I'm joking, of course.

But why not? (laughs)

BBC: Does the President's Office consider the possibility of early elections across Ukraine or only in some cities?

Andriy Bohdan: That's a very long question with no single answer. You must understand what local elections are, what legislative limits exist, and to avoid chaos—which will certainly happen...

Our early elections are always held for the term until the regular ones so that all councils across Ukraine reload simultaneously. If you do early elections now, they will be very close to the regular ones. And our regular ones are soon (in the fall of 2020—ed.).

Does it make sense? On one hand, the parliamentary elections showed there is sense. On the other hand, to hold elections now and again in a year—well, that's not the best idea.

Expert groups are working; we're drafting various bill projects. For now there are three paths. Which to take we haven't decided. So again I answer: if we do something, we plan far ahead. This includes Klitschko and all other cities and all other painful local problems.

We understand society demands a reloading of local authorities. But which way to go so as not to stumble on the way—we haven't decided yet.

When will the president's press conference be?

BBC: When will the president have a full press conference, not an interview with "Tesla" or an actor with obviously prewritten questions and answers, nicely edited and so on?

Andriy Bohdan: When society demands such a press conference, we'll give it. For now society wants direct communication with the president without intermediaries. And we do exclusively what Ukrainian citizens want, not some very respected journalists—we greatly respect them, but...

BBC: We understand you don't like journalists.

Andriy Bohdan: No, I do. Look, I communicate adequately with journalists. But for me there's a portion of the journalistic community that doesn't work according to standards of journalistic ethics. To their question why you don't talk to us, I say: I believe you don't meet those standards; communicating with you would be humiliating for me.

BBC: Then a counter question: why did you do what you did with your resignation letter?

2 August the media, citing sources in the President's Office, exploded with the sensation—Andriy Bohdan wrote a resignation letter.

Moreover the letter itself appeared online, which journalists "leaked" from the Office—it was handwritten, without addressee, signature, date, with the odd phrasing "I ask to relieve me of the position I hold at the moment of desire."

The next day Volodymyr Zelensky said indeed members of his team wrote such letters to demonstrate that they "don't cling to seats and are ready at any moment to leave their posts." So it turned out to be a symbolic gesture without practical consequences.

Andriy Bohdan: With which one?

BBC: With your "resignation letter" you deceived journalists and society.

Andriy Bohdan: It's an absolutely real letter.

BBC: It's not registered...

Andriy Bohdan: When the president decides, it will be registered and executed.

BBC: Do you realize you spoiled the President's Office's relations—or at least some of its employees' relations—with many serious and possibly even loyal journalists?

Andriy Bohdan: Seriously? (laughs)

I believe we didn't spoil anything. It's an absolutely truthful story, part of which went on air. There's no point in inventing anything.

Oksana Torop, Sviatoslav Khomenko; photo: Mykhailo Markiv; BBC