Andriy Sadovyi: The people who threw a boomerang at Lviv will get hit on the head with that very boomerang

Andriy Sadovyi: The people who threw a boomerang at Lviv will get hit on the head with that very boomerang

Our conversation today is with Andriy Sadovyi, the mayor of Lviv.

Andriy Ivanovych, I read your interview in Dzerkalo Tyzhnia and I liked a line from Serhiy Rakhmanin, who interviewed you, about our president: “Generous cunning has been replaced by evil helplessness.” Evil is understandable, but is it really “helplessness”? In that interview you said that your suspension from office was practically a fait accompli. But that was a month ago, and now we are still sitting here in the mayor’s office of Lviv. Tell me… Has anything changed since then? The folder…

…Yes. It’s lying there. They’re ready to pull it out at any second, but something really frightened them. I think maybe it’s the public reaction, the people’s support. People proved to be much wiser than the authors of those scenarios who had drawn them up.

…You know, I have respect for strong people. Strong people are, to some extent, predictable.

But the weak ones—when they come to power—can, in order to preserve themselves, do the most terrible things. That’s dangerous.

As always in interviews, you try to hide information between the lines. Meanwhile, the head of your parliamentary faction already openly talks about terror by the authorities. So you give your faction carte blanche to send clear messages to society, while you leave yourself a niche of tolerance and loyalty to the authorities? Or does the office oblige you?

First of all, I bear responsibility for the community of Lviv. I understand that the position of Samopomich in the Verkhovna Rada created certain inconveniences for Lviv residents, because, trying to put pressure on the party, on the parliamentary faction, they began to pressure me and create problems for the city. And in this, actually, is the foolishness of those weak people who are in power. They do not understand that Lviv has endured very difficult trials throughout its history. We will get through this too.

And the people who launched that boomerang toward Lviv will get hit on the head with that same boomerang.

I am very worried about the persecutions that are being carried out against members of our party, our colleagues. You don’t have to go far: the head of the Zaporizhzhia regional organization, who is also the first deputy head of the regional council—criminal proceedings. Ms. Natalia Chyzh, head of the Zhytomyr regional organization, secretary of the Zhytomyr city council—searches at home, and at the time she wasn’t even there. They illegally suspended our head of the Volyn regional organization and the secretary of the Lutsk city council from their duties, by the way. They removed from office, on the command of Bankova, the first deputy head of the regional council, head of the Lviv regional organization, Praskoviia Dvorianyn. They set fire to the car of Ms. Voitsitska—one of the active members of parliament. There was an unauthorized entry into the residence of Oleh Bereziuk. Over the past year there were two unauthorized burglaries into the apartment of Oleh Lavryk, a member of parliament and head of the party’s executive committee. I could continue this list. These are unacceptable things after the Revolution of Dignity. The people who came to power then, you know, beat their chests and said that they would serve the Ukrainians who elected them.

Unfortunately, those theses are now received with sarcasm. I say sincerely, “unfortunately.”

I understand you.

Nevertheless, does this Damocles’ sword of suspension remain hanging over you?

In Ukrainian politics you have to be ready for the fact that tomorrow you could be arrested and thrown in jail.

I also stumbled over that phrase in your interviews. But you went into politics, right? So are you ready for such sacrifices? For what purpose?

You know, I had an ambition to be a mayor, to be a successful mayor. I went to build a city where people want to live. I realized that this is possible in our country if we simultaneously build a country where people want to live. And I went to build the country. How is it done in the civilized world? A party is formed, because only parties can build successful countries. We entered the party process. Today we have a parliamentary faction, and we feel what political pressure is, what persecution is, what base politics is—that is the politics we have now. I feel it myself. Am I ready for these challenges? I must be ready, because I am the leader of a party on which Ukrainians place quite a large hope.

You asserted and you assert that the premiership does not interest you. Is that thesis still current?

We live in a parliamentary-presidential country, at least I want to believe so. In a parliamentary-presidential country the prime minister is chosen by the coalition. If you have 226 votes, you can confidently work as prime minister and be guaranteed that the country will carry out reforms, and you will be responsible for the government’s actions. If you have 26 deputies, you will never be a self-sufficient prime minister. You will be dependent on all the oligarchic groups that are present in our country today. You will be stretched from morning to night. You will not be able to make a single decision that would be useful for the country. You will make decisions that are useful for the oligarchs.

Mr. Andriy, but we all know that even arithmetically there is no coalition, because there aren’t 226 deputies.

There aren’t…

So what does that mean? That the parliament is illegitimate and that any of its votes can be challenged in court? What is happening, really?

In fact, the parliament, forgive me, is governed from the outside. And if it is governed from the outside—then how does the Cabinet of Ministers function? So, unfortunately, this is not the government that should be in a Ukraine that is undergoing such difficult trials.

Would you accept the post of prime minister if the government leaders weren’t, as you put it, fall guys, is that right?

I believe that one can work in any position under one condition: when your hands are untied and you can pursue real policy. To be prime minister today you need to rely on 226 votes. And what’s happening now? The government makes decisions, and then it starts: will the parliament vote for this, and when will it vote? You know, it’s like a patient lying on the operating table who needs an urgent operation, and the surgeon doesn’t have the right to perform it because his hands are tied and he must wait for “the highest permission.” Well, the patient will die, that’s it. That’s the situation in Ukraine today.

We understand that 226 votes there already won’t be gathered, or will be gathered through enormous bargaining, by paying money, frankly speaking.

Yes.

So, elections. Again, you claim that elections must be held under new rules.

Of course.

Tell me, please, will deputies want to saw off the branch they’re sitting on? If we change the rules, eliminate majoritarian seats, introduce transparent lists, what percentage of current deputies will return to parliament?

Few.

I think about 10 percent. So you’re proposing to them: “Go, shoot yourself…”. That’s about how it looks.

Well, Viktor Fedorovych didn’t want to leave either. He thought he would rule forever. And where is he today?

Right. That’s why the idea must be put out to the people that the system will change under completely new rules that no one wants to play by today. And who will put out those ideas if all the TV channels are in the hands of the same oligarch puppet-masters of the Ukrainian parliament?

Well, today the influence of the media is not that critical. There are social networks and people can get objective information from them. It’s not the time that it was 10 years ago. The situation will continue to change. I believe in Ukraine’s success. I only understand one thing: it will not be fast, not in one day. It will take a little longer because we are too large a country and for too long we were under the influence of the Soviet mentality. And that is still inside many people. We can speak pretty words, but our actions, unfortunately, are not.

Everything would be fine if there were no war. We live one day for three, time is very compressed. Therefore action must be faster.

You understand, if the war ends, the authorities will be swept away. And the authorities understand that.

That’s why they are not interested in the war ending. They will be swept away. Their heels will burn. Because the people will ask: why are we so poor?

Because we are stupid…

No. Believe me, the time will come and the people will ask a lot of questions.

So you will be promoting the thesis about the advisability of early elections, at least parliamentary ones?

You know, they are analyzing where to look for opportunities to “slip through” into new terms.

They today are not thinking about quality governance of the country. How to remain and continue to reign—that’s what they have in their heads.

As for early elections, our position is very clear: under the existing legislation, early elections will only increase the oligarchy’s potential and influence.

That will be the case. Therefore we must push for a new election law; that must be the position of all conscious Ukrainians.

How to do that, how to convey the need for changes in election legislation to society? Do you have any strategy?

You know, the IMF today is the lifeline that both the president and the prime minister rely on. If in negotiations with the IMF there is a clear provision—holding elections in Ukraine under a new scheme—they will have nowhere to go. They will have no other choice. And there are actually many such options, you understand?

But who will propose to the IMF to include such a provision?

I already proposed it to them.

And what did they say?

They are thinking it over.

I think that soon we will see a firmer position from the United States, which has influence on the world order and to which Ukraine, I think, is not indifferent.

They need a Ukraine without corruption and without the oligarchy that exists here today.

Are you convinced they want Ukraine at all?

You know, whether we like it or not, we are in the center of Europe, and many people get headaches from the potential threats of instability in Ukraine. I think many European leaders do not want that headache. They would prefer to deal with their own problems—which, by the way, they have a lot of. Therefore I think they are all interested in Ukraine being predictable, in normal state governance happening here. And that will only be possible when we have a quality parliament, and consequently a quality government. And that is possible only when elections are held under a new scheme. So it’s very simple and logical. Not all the stars have aligned yet; more time is needed.

Would you be ready to head a quality government?

Why do you think that during that time many more professional and worthy people won’t appear? I always involve people who are wiser, more talented than me. Let’s see what the situation will be then. It is not my life’s dream to head one structure or another. My big life task is to live in a successful country and to do everything possible for that.

A few months ago I spoke with Doctor of Sociology and head of a sociological organization Oleksandr Vyshniak. I don’t know whether Samopomich is his client…

…It’s not his client.

…He said that the current president got scared by the rise of your ratings and buried you in garbage. Does the president really fear you that much?

Well, you have to ask him that.

But you talk with him?

Of course.

You know him and know, presumably, how he thinks and what his worldview is. So does he really see you as a serious opponent?

If we speak about personalities, it’s probably unethical for me to comment on the president’s thoughts. Ask him yourself on the occasion and you’ll hear his answer.

And he answers roughly like you do—he passes between the raindrops.

(Sadovyi laughs)

Well, that was a lyrical digression… You once said that your main goal is to hold on and wait for the collapse of this system. What did you mean by the word “system”?

It’s the oligarchic system that, starting from the first years of independence, has governed this country. They have total influence over media resources, they have total influence on the work of parliament.

Only the surnames of presidents change, but the principle of governance remains, unfortunately, the same.

And even war and deaths do not affect them much; they have even learned to profit from that. And this blockade in the East showed who is who. When everyone cried out in one voice—how could this be, because they earn here, and the blockaders are getting in their way.

Well, since you raised the topic of the blockade, how exactly will the collapse of this oligarchic system you speak of occur, if the blockade clearly demonstrated that our authorities play on the side of oligarch Rinat Akhmetov and for some reason allow him to trade inside Ukraine at ‘Rotterdam Plus’ prices?

You see, there is a decision of the National Security and Defense Council. It would not have existed if ordinary Ukrainians had not gone and blocked connections. That decision of the NSDC would not have happened. Right?

Maybe. But you yourself say that one thing is to make a decision and another thing is to implement it. Those are two big differences, as they say in Odesa.

Why are we here then? We must be wiser, anticipate their moves ahead of time and not give them the opportunity to not implement the NSDC decision. You know, you can successfully govern only when people trust you. Then you can go to the people and use their support. If you lack trust, it’s a huge illusion.

Because the same oligarchs who support you today will hand you over tomorrow with all your innards.

When you cannot protect their interests, they’ll just throw you away. So everyone who trusts the oligarchy and cooperates with them must understand this.

Well then, do you believe that our country will someday be without oligarchs?

I believe it. Of course I do.

Under what conditions will that happen?

When we are able to hold honest elections, when there is an honest and fair election law, when the state invests the lion’s share of public funds in education and enlightenment.

Because people choose people like themselves.

It’s a very long road. I can’t tell you today that in five months or five years a miracle will happen and everything will change. This is hard, routine work. Remember who you are today and who you were 10 years ago and 20 years ago.

Yes, different.

And so each of us. We become more experienced, tougher; even today’s trials and difficulties make us stronger. We learn. I don’t intend to leave the country, I don’t intend to hide; I am here, my colleagues are all here. We will do everything we can today. You’re right, today it’s important to survive in this system, not to sell out. Because there was an example in Ukrainian history when a powerful ideological party with a clear vision for the state’s development appeared—that was Rukh. It was destroyed, disbanded, divided... Today Samopomich has the ambition to be a powerful ideological party; we intend to build a successful Ukraine. We are going through a difficult period, we are under pressure, they’re repressing us—we understand this, but we will survive this period.

But those who are persecuting you now cannot fail to realize that people traditionally sympathize with the victim, with those who are humiliated. Remember Yulia Tymoshenko. Or Savchenko. Everyone cried watching them in prison…

Ninety-nine percent of those who enter Ukrainian politics then simply sell themselves, I’ll tell you honestly. You know, Ukrainian politics is like a house of ill repute.

But you also went into Ukrainian politics.

Yes, today we are like monks—we stand and hold a firm position. We are tempted, bought, beaten—we stand. Because we believe in what we do.

How are you tempted? Have bribes been offered to your deputies for a certain vote? Or for not leaving the coalition?

Whatever you want. You know, they just need to be tempted. And then… send to the scrap heap. That’s it.

So is all of Samopomich made of steadfast tin soldiers?

Why… The faction began with thirty-three deputies. Today twenty-six remain. Not everyone withstood the test.

And of those who remain, will some still leave?

You know, we stick together.

What’s the situation with Syroyid? (15 in March, Deputy Speaker of the Verkhovna Rada Oksana Syroyid closed a plenary session after police officers who had participated in an incident with MP Volodymyr Parasiuk at a checkpoint in Sloviansk the day before entered the session hall, - ed.)

As far as I know, there is an attempt to collect signatures for her dismissal.

But this has been dragging on for quite a while—have they collected those signatures?

I don’t know. Only one person in our country can answer that question—the president. You have to ask him.

So the situation is “suspended”?

You know, Oksana Ivanivna feels very confident because she did the right and dignified thing that did not allow the Ukrainian parliament to be besmirched. She was right. And whoever is right is on that side and God is on that side.

But you spoke very tolerantly about Minister Avakov, whose political force is actually initiating her dismissal.

I don’t think they’re initiating it; I think they’re executing certain tasks. The People’s Front is not a homogeneous party; there are many people with different opinions there.

What is your vision for the resolution of this situation?

Apologize to Oksana Ivanivna. Thank her for showing firmness and principle. They will officially collect signatures when they are sure they can gather them. They carried out various test attempts, talked to many. A large part of BPP deputies said they would not do this. Likewise in the People’s Front many deputies said they would not vote for it. That’s it.

Our interview will be published after the Easter holidays. And tomorrow, on Friday, Prime Minister Hroisman’s report should take place in parliament. Ungrateful, of course, question, but how do you assess the prospects of the current government based on the annual report? (Our conversation with Andriy Sadovyi took place on Thursday, 13 April and we did not yet know that the report on 14 April did not take place - ed.)

I think Friday will not change anything. I feel deep regret for the ministers. You can be a strong prime minister under one condition—when there are strong ministers, self-sufficient specialists who deeply know their field. Unfortunately, today that is not the case.

A strong government today is of benefit to very few in Ukraine.

So there will be no vote on this issue on Friday. If there are votes, they will be after Easter.

But do you allow that some serious decisions will be made regarding the composition of the current Cabinet?

I am very rarely in Kyiv, a couple times a month. So I don’t think my opinion will be objective. As someone who has known both Hroisman and Poroshenko for a long time, I can tell you they have excellent cooperation and coordination between them. And I don’t believe rumors that they have quarrelled. They have excellent personal relations. They agree on and do many things together. It’s just that outwardly a certain intrigue is created as if they are in confrontation or have divergent views. I don’t believe that.

Today I read an analysis on Ukrinform of Hroisman’s government’s activities over a year. One of the achievements listed for the current Cabinet was the arrival in Ukraine of the low-cost airline Ryanair. But if one of the government’s major achievements in a year is considered the appearance of one low-cost carrier in our airspace, that’s sad.

To be clear, Ryanair began working with Lviv back in 2011. And note that they are already selling tickets from Lviv. So flights from Lviv will be guaranteed. What will happen in Kyiv is still unknown. You are right: today the people in power have little to boast about.

But they must realize that people read such articles and wonder—whether this is really a major achievement of the ‘reformist government’?

You understand… You live in a normal world, you talk with normal people. How does a high-ranking official live? In the morning an armored car arrives at his house, he leaves home, gets into that car, is driven to the government, enters his office. During the day he has sterile contact with people who guaranteed won’t spoil his mood. Maybe afterwards—some sport or a massage salon. Then he is driven home.

These people are disconnected, they don’t feel the pulse of Ukraine, they don’t feel the pulse of life. They perceive everything through the prism of media. That’s a misfortune and a tragedy. You must be with people from morning to night, every day. The situation is very, very difficult because the level of trust in today’s politicians is critically low.

If such a situation existed in the U.S., they would already have declared a state of emergency.

Well, you cannot successfully govern a country when you don’t have the people’s support. That makes us maximally dependent on external enemies. And Putin knows that very well. European politicians know that very well, and they often have much greater influence on Ukrainian officials than the Ukrainian people do.

But this situation cannot last forever?

It cannot. We must do everything possible so that self-sufficient, responsible people come to power who will be dependent on Ukrainians but not on external circumstances or Ukrainian oligarchs. You know, Ukraine exists. I believe it will be. The question of what kind it will be depends on you and us… How you work as a journalist, how firm you are, how much you give in or not give in to temptations. Look how much planted content there is in today’s Ukrainian media. Or how I will work—whether I will be able to hold out in this struggle, because I haven’t had that experience before. Having worked 11 years as a mayor, I can honestly tell you this year is the hardest in my life. I could not have imagined in a terrible dream that I would live under such pressure. It was unthinkable, especially after the Revolution of Dignity.

How do you cope?

I live this way. Thank God people support me. My family supports me, friends support me, party colleagues support me. Because every day I have a million artificially created problems that must be solved. But thank God, you saw the city— the city lives, develops, people are happy. They marry, fall in love, we prepare for Easter. Last year we welcomed 2, 5 million tourists. Everything’s okay. But what goes on inside me, this pain, these sufferings—nobody sees that; I keep them to myself. I promised to work honestly for the community. I do it, no matter how hard it is for me.

Do you take any sedatives?

Never in my life (laughs).

…Or mint tea…

When I have to make very difficult decisions, I may open the Holy Scripture and read a good prayer. That helps a lot, by the way.

You have a strong nervous system…

I personally try to work surrounded by wise, intelligent, well-bred people. They give me strength and God’s grace. And my family, and my wife Kateryna, who loves and supports me.

…Speaking of your recent conversation with Poroshenko, you said: we agreed to phone each other. Have you called yet?

How can I interrupt the president when every day he’s at the top of international politics, deciding matters of human life, and I would call him with my small issues?

But you yourself said he takes offense when you are in Kyiv and don’t call him?

Well, maybe next time I go I will call.

So the last word between you hasn’t been said?

God forbid, are you kidding? Life is a long-distance run.

I see that Samopomich has begun actively working the thesis that prisoner exchanges have effectively stopped. Why have you raised this problem now—only now remembering our prisoners? The war has been going on for three years.

This is a critically serious problem. We must do everything possible and impossible to free our guys from captivity. Israel once gave hundreds to get back one of its soldier from captivity. We must do the same.

Why aren’t we doing that?

…In one of our city council departments a woman works whose brother is in captivity. I feel that pain every day. I told you my position. The president has extraordinary possibilities to settle this issue—he must simply make a decision.

And did you discuss this issue with him?

Yes, I discussed it with him.

Has there been any progress after that?

I don’t know; this topic is closed to the general public. I just asked him not to count what is profitable and what is unprofitable, but to simply take action.

A silly question, I would say, but the return of prisoners is handled by Viktor Medvedchuk.

If the president of Ukraine believes he is the best negotiator on this issue—that’s the president’s decision. I might do it differently.

Regarding the bill on the occupied territories. You assert that the blockade will really begin to work only with the adoption of such a law. Are you doing anything to ensure this law is finally adopted?

Unfortunately, there are not enough votes in parliament for the law to be passed in the edition that would be beneficial for the Ukrainian people.

I am convinced that we will hardly be able to liberate our lands in the near future. It’s very difficult. I draw a historical parallel with Germany. After World War II the government of Germany was led by Konrad Adenauer. He was chancellor for three terms. During that time he was offered reunification. He had a very firm position; he said: either reunification or freedom. He chose freedom. And when later Kohl became chancellor and then the Soviet Union collapsed, the GDR lightly joined the FRG and that was not a problem for Germany. Germany kept its course. If Adenauer had gone for reunification at that time, we would have lost the Germany we see today—a strong, self-sufficient EU leader. You must always have a firm and principled position. We must analyze deeply the processes in Abkhazia, Transnistria, Karabakh. Because Russia has no intention of removing its troops from the occupied territories of Donetsk and Luhansk regions. To wage war against a nuclear country is foolish. You have to win with intellect. One approach is to invest maximally and put your own efforts into the development of your country. If the standard of living in Ukraine is three or four times higher than in Russia, all those territories will return to us much sooner than we think. But for that we must work on the country, not on political intrigues and all those nasty things we talked about.

But for that you have to resolve the triangle of Ukraine, Russia, and those so-called “republics.”

Everything is very clear: there’s a territory under occupation, and the occupier—according to international law—bears responsibility for the territories he has occupied. No negotiations today will bring any result.

But you yourself said that the authorities are not interested in ending this strange hybrid war…

That is the trouble. That is the tragedy. That is our greatest tragedy.

So you predict that this unhealthy state—neither peace nor war—will continue?

I don’t see a way to untie this knot instantly and quickly. I am convinced we will be able to reclaim our territories, but thanks to the clear, firm position of the leaders who will come. I don’t think today’s leaders will resolve these issues.

You know, on Mondays we review those killed during the week. Every time we write about dozens of our fallen heroes…

This is the greatest pain, the most terrible thing that can be.

People with honor and dignity should come to power. People who have the courage to make decisions. That’s an axiom. Unfortunately, that is not the case today. But I have five little boys, and I want them to be proud of their country. I want them to read about the war in books. I am a father, I worry. The eldest is fifteen. We have nothing but our own country. Those are the realities.

Still, the people choose the government. And after all, more than 50% voted for Poroshenko then.

Of course.

Perhaps the problem is not only with the authorities but also with the people?

I already said: people choose people like themselves. That’s why I say we need educational work, we need to work with ordinary Ukrainians, to be with them, to make them stronger, to give them more firmness and confidence—then they will elect better people to power. That’s how the world works.

To finish, if you allow, a couple of personal questions.

Please.

I adore Lviv, but lately it’s becoming more and more Russian-speaking. Why do Lviv residents tolerate this phenomenon?

Lviv is a city that can even make serfs into a people.

Those are words from a song performed by the band Mery. You’re right: we have many guests from the East. They speak the language that’s familiar to them. But after visiting Lviv they return to their cities and start speaking Ukrainian there. Their children come here and enroll in our educational institutions and become fully Ukrainian-speaking. That is our mission, our calling.

When I retire I’ll buy an apartment in Lviv too…

Welcome. You’re invited (laughs).

Final question is also personal. A few years ago—before its closure—I worked as press secretary for TVi. You were on a show and I handed you a letter on behalf of the community about Serhiy Husovskyi and his restaurant Pantagruel, which seized our Zolotovoritsky Square.

I remember.

Nothing has changed. Taking a square from Kyiv residents, moreover a state historical-landscape monument, is unbecoming, do you agree?

I agree with you.

Pantagruel has one summer terrace—apparently not enough? Now they cleared the benches and replaced them with tables and coffee at 50 hryvnias. Why should I sit at that table and drink coffee? Talk to your Husovskyi…

You have the right to sit at that table and you have the right to sit there as long as you want. No one has the right to force you to buy coffee there.

But no one knows that, everyone’s afraid to sit there.

Well, you can come and sit and say: I’ll sit here. That’s it. Set an example for everyone else.

Now that’s a Galician solution to the problem. Leave the restaurant and allow Kyiv residents to rest there without ordering anything.

(Sadovyi laughs).

Photo: Roman Baluk

Conversation conducted by Halyna Plachynda, MYR publication